To allow WW2 Airsoft to grow, we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that a large proportion of players cant afford to go out and blow 400 quid on a loadout and shooter to go with it.
while i agree completely about staying inclusive, the cost has plummetted from when i first started ww2 airsoft, which was only a year or so ago. it's feasible to get a HK uniform and gun for £200 now, (german m36 + MP40 as a quick example) which puts you straight in the 'able to play in proper kit' zone, and then you can get all the field gear and gucci options later.
£200 is still a fair whack, but considerably less than £400. For example, I can't think of a decent sport you could play at a team level and fork out less than a couple of hundred quid or so.
plus a load of us have spare kit... I know for instance that I'll have 2 denisons I can lend out at Varsity to anyone who may not have one themselves, but wants to join in! That means all a prospective player needs to supply is really the maroon beret
Agreed I'd liek to see this hobby build on three tiers.
The original tier pre cia where sites ran wwii days and you could come in kit if you want or use whatever you like, much as it might not be *our* thing it all raises awareness, i'd hate for sites to stop doing them cos they felt nobody would come.
Then the sort of stuff we're all doing now.
Then on *top* of that not replacing it a few 're-enactment battle with bbs' type events, maybe not quite that hardcore but real tight scenario/accuracy driven stuff.
Its worth giving a go, it doesnt mena its where i want all wwii airsoft to go, i'd just like the option of being able to do it.
An analogy would be you can go to an open day or you can go to an IED 24 hour milsim event... going to one doenst stop you enjoying the other.
"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."
To allow WW2 Airsoft to grow, we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that a large proportion of players cant afford to go out and blow 400 quid on a loadout and shooter to go with it.
while i agree completely about staying inclusive, the cost has plummetted from when i first started ww2 airsoft, which was only a year or so ago. it's feasible to get a HK uniform and gun for £200 now, (german m36 + MP40 as a quick example) which puts you straight in the 'able to play in proper kit' zone, and then you can get all the field gear and gucci options later.
Yes, the price has dropped, but notably more for the Germans than the Brits - where can you get wool BD for a half decent price?
When we were a Kingdom it was run by a King
When we were an Empire it was run by an Empress
Now we're a country we're run by a..........
its getting better as far as BD goes... there's some new stuff just appeared on ebay in the last week or so.
Same for US
You can get badged up 101st jumpsuits for bugger all on ebay and thompson for £70
In fact its as cheap as regular airsoft now if you want to airsoft in more than just an NBC suit or a flecky parka and tracy bottoms 
"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."
US kit tend to be on the expensive side, too. Don't get me started on mustards!
I see what your saying Gadge, and I do agree, but as I said before, the initial sentiment that CiA should 'tighten up' is what I'm against.
Within our little groups we all have our own levels of realism and expression; the Amis want to have a barbie and get wasted, the Limeys want to do drill and the Boches want to get naked. As an encompassing organisation, however, particularly one which I know is highly regarded, we should treat the WW2 style with kid gloves. When people with no kit get registered here, see what the craic is and resolve to join a group which suits their own needs, then they can be told what is and isn't acceptable. Every group now has a chance to run its own games, with whatever level of minimum participation it feels like, but CiA should always be populist. See it as a recruiting tool for WW2 airsoft.
'Sall I'm sayin'. 
I agree Kav - tell them how cheap it can be.... hook 'em first, and then reel 'em in! 
You've got nothing to ein, zwei, drei, vier
Didnt know that about the 101st. interesting fact. thing is though alot dont like doing the 101st as they are over glamourised often, and unlike the brit stuff yank stuff was very accessable prior to the doughboys so alot of people already had their units chosen and favourites badged up as. And as we found they arent mega keen on changing.
As we arent going down the same line as the pbi at the moment we dont really feel we need to ask everyone to go down the same unit route yet. Plus our background/reason for starting the db's isnt quite the same either so we feel a wider tact is best to encourage people to come join in so we can build up a good player base before we consider doing further things like that.
once we've gotten out of our infancy and built on things a bit more we may go back down that route but for now we want to leave the net as wide as we can for people.
Kavster, I think you're slightly confused... WW2 airsoft has grown bigger than CiA.
Who said they were going to change their rules, or suggested they would?
Plus our background/reason for starting the db's isnt quite the same either so we feel a wider tact is best to encourage people to come join in so we can build up a good player base before we consider doing further things like that.
I thought that was CiA's aim? I would have thought it more sensible to provide the "next step" since they already catered to that need?
I think you're slightly confused... WW2 airsoft has grown bigger than CiA.
Who said they were going to change their rules, or suggested they would?
I think CiA is seen as a flagship for WW2, don't you?
This whole debate started as a response to the suggestion that CiA games have a rule stating that any projected StG.44 AEG be limited to post 1944 games. Presumably to stop a perceived proliferation of a weapon that was not common enough for everyone at a game to have. Not a blanket change of direction, but rather the 'tightening up' of our previously inclusive rules that I seem to have been banging on about for the past hour.
Apologies if people think I have been banging on, or even if they think I'm a 'wet-behind-the-ears upstart who has no right to talk as I haven't been there since day one'. I'm growing rather fond of this forum and its denizens, and I care about this stuff. 
I think the suggestion of that rule was very tongue in cheek!
I'm sure the rules will be adjusted to suit the changing winds of WW2 airsoft and will keep the fleet afloat and heading in the right direction.
I know we keep on tweaking the rules for "every" event. I don't think a single event has had exactly the same rule set as any previous ones!
lets face it most of our games are post 44 anyway because we would have to do russian italian and african or pre dunkirk....... certainly no americans....
I am with kermit on this
If you were going to tighten up on weapons, then the americans would have to have mostly garands, the germans would have mostly K98s, the british would have enfields and stens, etc etc. I think the ethos of CIA is fine as it is. the beauty is that the main games are inclusive - I imagine that at our game at GZ in July we will have a lot of lookalikes, but once these people get hooked I am sure they will gravitate to some of the more specialist groups.... The whole point is that CIA is inclusive of people who dont want to specialise too much due to costs or desire, but also includes people who , like PBI want to be more re-enactorish as long as we dont mind playing alongside, or are too critical each other!
Vorsprung durch Blitzkreig !
Speed, aggression and Hugo Boss
the innocent have nothing to fear......[img][/img]
If you were going to tighten up on weapons, then the americans would have to have mostly garands, the germans would have mostly K98s, the british would have enfields and stens, etc etc.
As unlikely as it ever is to happen, and i'm not suggesting for a moment that we should tighten the gun rules, but personally i think that'd be great in a game!
I dont think anyone is proposing changing cia's rules, i think we're just saying it would be nice to do a historically accurate game for some of us.
However i do agree wiht rich (strange that seeing as we ar ein the same group )
CiA is the base level if you will for wwii, surely the 'groups' formed should be adding more to that layer, i see little point in providing a 'group' that actually offers nothing more for a player than you can already get out of a game.
Now for the sake of debate....
IN PBI we ask folk to take on a common cap badge and carry appropriate kit, it doenst have to be completely historically accurate but the more the better, we also ask them not to badge themselves up as brigadiers with the victoria cross...
Players make that sacrifice to be part of the group.
In return we organise period training and display.demo, some tightly themed games and provide members with very discounted cap badges for any unit we want them to portray (and we've got some other secret members only goodies coming up)
Thats the benefits.
Now if we didnt do any of that why should anyone bother subscribing to a group when they could just turn up and play as they do anyway?
You dont have to be in PBI to play as a brit, but to be in PBI you have to play a particular type of brit if that makes sense.
IMO this proliferation of groups recently has caused a fair bit of confusion, folk feel that because they play for sake of argument a serbian partisan they have to be in the serbian partisans group then get edgy if somebody mentions having some sot of uniformity (shock horror! a group or team with uniformity.. the world is coming to an end)
IMO without direction or group identity a group is meaningless, lovley for a social but thats about it.
Now all of this is not a go at anyone or a criticism, its just my views and experience for debate and having ran a few airsoft teams in the past and orgnaised more stuff than i carer to think about.
I've always found that the maxim 'too many cooks spoil the broth' is never truer than when trying to orgnaise things in airsoft, with so many individual characters you really need a strong 'mission statement' to get *anything* done, other wise it ends up being acompromise design by committee.
Like i say just points for debate and a view that prescriptive groups are actually IMO more efficient.
So whats the counter views then.
"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."
If you were going to tighten up on weapons, then the americans would have to have mostly garands, the germans would have mostly K98s, the british would have enfields and stens, etc etc.
As unlikely as it ever is to happen, and i'm not suggesting for a moment that we should tighten the gun rules, but personally i think that'd be great in a game!
Yeah... it doesn't have to happen in all games... most games or even in two... but just to try it at least once would be superb!
I love a good debate...
All very interesting but just to make it clear, CiA inclusive 'rules' won't be changing. But, even given the relaxed rules players hardly ever take the base line - more usually it's just incomplete or mishmash kit.
But pretty much as Gadge says, there is more to WW2 airsoft than CiA run games. More players are taking up the WW2 cause, other groups and sites are taking the opportunity to make games available and with that their own rules, both wider and narrower than CiA's.
That's good - more choice, more opportunity to play how you want, when you want. Just don't expect a 100 player bolt-action-only game anytime soon (much as I'd love one!)!
As an aside, at the BotB game we attempted to run a 'balanced' firepower system, reserving the right to nominate some auto guns to be only used on semi-auto. As I recall we didn't need to use it and haven't considered it necessary since!
US kit tend to be on the expensive side, too. Don't get me started on mustards!
As a useful aside, i'm sure someone told me that the current UK no2 dress uniform trousers looks exactly like us mustards and cost about £5?
"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."
